Season 3

Lionel:
sterling dialogue we're having here.

Jim and David:
That's right. Ugh.

Lionel:
You gonna

Jim and David:
see

Lionel:
play

Jim and David:
if

Lionel:
like

Jim and David:
this

Lionel:
your

Jim and David:
works.

Lionel:
tune?

Jim and David:
So we're gonna play. was that someone lent me someone lent me a Tacoma Tacoma pickup truck

Lionel:
Yeah,

Jim and David:
Toyota Tacoma

Lionel:
Toyota

Jim and David:
truck

Lionel:
Tacoma

Jim and David:
and it's a 1990s model and it's a stick shift and it drives

Lionel:
WOOOOOOW

Jim and David:
like a truck let me tell you it's a lot

Lionel:
Whoa.

Jim and David:
of fun I haven't really had much chance to drive it I drove it once but

Lionel:
And how does

Jim and David:
I'm

Lionel:
it

Jim and David:
doing it.

Lionel:
quote unquote drive as a truck? What do you mean?

Jim and David:
You know, it's funny, you drive modern cars for a while and you forget what an old stick shift feels like. Just kind of that living on the edge kind of feeling, driving down the highway.

Lionel:
Is it on the column or is it actual stick shift on the floor or is it a

Jim and David:
stick

Lionel:
column?

Jim and David:
shift on the floor with

Lionel:
It's

Jim and David:
a clutch

Lionel:
on the floor.

Jim and David:
pedal and you gotta let it out, you gotta learn it, you gotta get

Lionel:
That's

Jim and David:
to know

Lionel:
great.

Jim and David:
it, you gotta buy it dinner.

Lionel:
You remember the old the rabbit I had, remember that one, the Volkswagen

Jim and David:
Yeah,

Lionel:
Rabbit?

Jim and David:
yeah, that

Lionel:
I

Jim and David:
was

Lionel:
love

Jim and David:
good.

Lionel:
that thing. That was a stick. That was great. But anyway.

Jim and David:
I had a rabbit and a golf and they were both sticks and I miss them, but that was back in the age of no airbags and just, you know, like the car was lighter,

Lionel:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jim and David:
just took off when I was a kid.

Lionel:
When I was a kid,

Jim and David:
Let me

Lionel:
yeah,

Jim and David:
tell

Lionel:
we,

Jim and David:
you,

Lionel:
okay.

Jim and David:
it was a thing called a stick. We have a guest today, and I'm actually his guest. I'm in North Carolina in Asheville, and I'm sitting with David Wilcox, who is my songwriting hero. And I thought we would talk about songwriting and talk about some of his songs and storytelling with music, storytelling in ultra-short form. I'm happy to be here. I so love the conversations that you guys have. interesting perspective, so I'm in. Excellent.

Lionel:
Well, I'll kick this off right here and right now.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
That song, Chet Baker's Unsung Swan song, walloped me. That was

Jim and David:
Mm.

Lionel:
so

Jim and David:
Wow.

Lionel:
good. And I don't say that loudly because I'm not into the whole singer song. I really am not. It's not my thing. I don't swim in those waters a lot. I just clicked Play and wowee kazooie. That fabulous performance, fabulous song. me a little bit of Sam Stone.

Jim and David:
Ugh. Yeah.

Lionel:
There's a hole in daddy's arm where the money goes.

Jim and David:
Yeah,

Lionel:
Great

Jim and David:
what a kill.

Lionel:
song. I was watching again today and I sent it to Jim, but your take on that whole thing was so much more, I mean, gentle and loving.

Jim and David:
And yet it is a killer song in the sense that, you know, somebody has to die in the course of a song. Killer song. And I, there's a lot of my songs where people die. If you can't keep a tally during a set,

Lionel:
Body count.

Jim and David:
exactly. Yeah, we got

Lionel:
The

Jim and David:
to

Lionel:
David

Jim and David:
bring them

Lionel:
Wilcox

Jim and David:
on.

Lionel:
body count. We'll set

Jim and David:
I

Lionel:
up

Jim and David:
think

Lionel:
a

Jim and David:
it's

Lionel:
website

Jim and David:
a mass

Lionel:
for

Jim and David:
project.

Lionel:
you. We're at, we're up to 172 people and he's got a new album coming out. We hope to break 200 next year.

Jim and David:
the- there's a ditch in east bodies go yeah. Well I've got a little bit forty five seconds

Lionel:
But Holstein, be free, please. I'm sorry, I interrupted David with joking around. But yeah, somebody dies.

Jim and David:
Yeah, I think for me, I write a lot of songs where people die. And I think it's just to get my attention. I think there's a lot of songs where the basic message of the song is, if left to my own devices, this particular behavior or whatever will kill me. So the song sort of says, it's sort of a look at this. When you look at this, when you feel this, this is where it's going. Yeah.

Lionel:
to yourself.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
So the other tune that Jim sent me that I listened to was walking through the museum

Jim and David:
Mmm.

Lionel:
and looking at the paintings and beautiful.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
We are saved by what's beautiful.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
Is that, I mean, I detect a theme here, which is there's a lot of despair.

Jim and David:
Well, I think for me, I use music in a very sort of off label way. There's a lot of people who, you know, like when they go to work in the morning to write songs, they think what I'm after is a song. I've never thought that.

Lionel:
Huh.

Jim and David:
I've thought what I'm after is to fucking survive. And if I'm going to survive, I need to listen to the subtle messages of my heart before it's too late. I would use a metal detector on the beach. I just walk along and I play a little thing and I write a little thing and then something just goes whoop and I say dig there. And I dig down and I find the thing.

Lionel:
Wow.

Jim and David:
Mm-hmm.

Lionel:
Now speaking about ultra precise metaphors, the third tune I listened to was the extended electronics metaphor of mind harmony. We're talking about stripping insulation

Jim and David:
Oh.

Lionel:
off of wires. And

Jim and David:
Yes,

Lionel:
Okay,

Jim and David:
yeah.

Lionel:
so...

Jim and David:
This is new actually, this song is not released. Yeah. But you played it live or have you played it? I have played it live. It's a fascinating song. And for me, that was a song about what I'm calling emotional autonomy, which is not just being subject to the current of the ambient emotion, but to actually know, you know, I have a choice. I can metabolize the ambient sorrow and turn it into perspective and compassion. And so I have this sort of ferocious, like I'm gonna learn how to do this before I get swept away. And that song is reminding me, like if you are out in the parking lot at night and a cop comes up and says, hey, what the hell are you doing? And you're like breaking into a car. You say, officer, it's my car. And he says, OK. And it's the same way I feel about like I can hack my perspective of where I am on this spectrum of hopeless to giddy. And I have to be really careful because I genetically I am predisposition to despair. Everyone in my family is medicated and just depressed and hospitalized. to be able to tell when my heart is saying, hey, hey, watch out. You know, this is the slippery slope right here. And so that's why I write these kinds of songs. But that song was about saying, no, wait a minute. If I can decide to change my emotional perception of what's going on, the same situation, but just how I'm reacting to it, of have this revolutionary feeling like that's my jurisdiction, you know, that's my territory, it's my fucking mind. And if I want to break the window and shut off the alarm, I'm going to do it, you know. Dave, you sound cool when you have a cold. I

Lionel:
Thanks for watching!

Jim and David:
like it. Before we lose our listener, because we've been going 90 miles an hour, we've just gone through three different songs. I would like to, I see, back it out and play a sample The song we've just been talking about, which most people have not heard, even if you're a David Wilcox fan, is My Own Mind, which will be on an upcoming recording. And here's a little bit of it. I love that idea of giving yourself permission to void the warranty on the way your mind is structured, the way your behaviors come about, and tell yourself different stories. That metaphor for the car or the piece of equipment or the amplifier that you're going to rig the way you want. I really love that. elements from which these songs arise. Ah. You know, because in a lot of ways they're filled with hope and empowerment and that's what you're giving people but then, yeah, I mean a lot of them do come out of the dark

Lionel:
Thank

Jim and David:
place.

Lionel:
you.

Jim and David:
It's hard to, a lot of songwriters just write about the dark place. Yeah. Right? I don't want to do that. Not the passage out of the dark place. In the case of a water

Lionel:
Thanks.

Jim and David:
landing, your guitar may be used as a personal flotation device.

Lionel:
See, that's what I found fascinating because a lot of artists, a lot of people would set up a metaphor between, okay, I have these mental challenges and I'm gonna map them onto electronics. But very few people would actually write a lyric about stripping insulation and then

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
trying to rhyme that to something else. So are you spending a lot of time on weekends with Arduinos and programming stuff, or does it

Jim and David:
Not.

Lionel:
stop with stripping insulation?

Jim and David:
Not any programming stuff, but I do geek really hard on being able to fix stuff. I love fixing stuff. And I have this awareness that there is a language of how the sort of shade

Lionel:
Thanks for watching!

Jim and David:
tree mechanic ethic of like how to take something apart and know how to, you know, like photograph everything and list everything and put all the parts in specific chronological containers. that I can fix shit and that applies to my own sort of physiology.

Lionel:
Right. I mean, I had this a couple of days ago where I was working, I'm doing this big migration of a piece of software and everything went to hell in the morning, one particular morning. And I got really, really wound up. And then I said, you know what? This has happened a lot of times before. And you know what happens? Not a hell of a lot. Like

Jim and David:
Not a hell of a

Lionel:
nobody

Jim and David:
lot.

Lionel:
really cares. Like you think that everybody's gonna be calling you up because they can't access this or that. They usually don't. It's only like one or two people. And honestly, nobody really cares about this piece of software on a day-to-day basis. And honestly, the entire company you're working for, we're not looking for a cure for it. So you sort of talk yourself down over time. Like

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
as you grow up, you say, I've seen this movie before. I

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
know how it ends. I'm going to get really spun up. I'm going to get really freaked out. And by two o'clock, I'm going to have forgotten about everything.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
So why don't we just jump to two o'clock right now? Why

Jim and David:
Exactly.

Lionel:
don't we just skip dinner?

Jim and David:
Well said.

Lionel:
So anyway, go ahead. But I really, I really, I like that. I also, I was also very interested in the connection between the harmony song and the Chet Baker song.

Jim and David:
Mm-hmm.

Lionel:
Because it's a lot about, a lot of the Chet Baker song is sort of the story of somebody who can't rewire their brain, where

Jim and David:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Lionel:
their brain has been unalterably rewired by an addiction to

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
the point, like you said, there's a part of me that's already buried.

Jim and David:
Oh, God.

Lionel:
I'm telling you,

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
you're

Jim and David:
That's

Lionel:
saying

Jim and David:
funny,

Lionel:
you're

Jim and David:
that's

Lionel:
the one who wrote

Jim and David:
that line.

Lionel:
it

Jim and David:
Yeah. Change

Lionel:
to

Jim and David:
the

Lionel:
me.

Jim and David:
wiring in my brain. That's, I didn't, I didn't

Lionel:
I don't know,

Jim and David:
get

Lionel:
but in

Jim and David:
that.

Lionel:
the Chet

Jim and David:
But

Lionel:
Baker one, there's a part

Jim and David:
that's,

Lionel:
of me that's...

Jim and David:
that's, that's

Lionel:
oh

Jim and David:
actually,

Lionel:
my god.

Jim and David:
that's the first line. My old addiction, change the wiring in my brain.

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
That's, yeah. Wait, here's, so here's 45 seconds. Here's a minute of it. I don't think I got that line in this. Yeah, so I mean, David's songs for people who can kind of get in that space and listen not just to the music, but the lyrics, it's not your IPA. It's more like the space side that's sitting in your liquor cabinet there, Lionel, that you don't want to touch because of that damn whiskey, that demon whiskey. Wait, why are you muted? Lionel, you're muted.

Lionel:
Sorry. I poured that down the drain.

Jim and David:
You did!

Lionel:
Oh

Jim and David:
Somebody

Lionel:
yeah, absolutely.

Jim and David:
gave you a really fine... Wow. Okay. Good for you, actually. respect too much right that it's a

Lionel:
Thanks for watching! Well, I'll stick with

Jim and David:
Okay.

Lionel:
the low octane stuff. It's just like, anyway, we digress. That was beautiful. Seriously. That's just so, is that the, but the one I saw is you doing it live, right?

Jim and David:
I might have sent that. I might have. Yes, I sent you a I sent you not the album. I couldn't find it to send to you. So that's off of home again, which is one of one of like your fifth album. Your third, third album. Yeah. So early on and you've had seven. Sixteen depends how you count. OK, some are Internet only, but there's like more than 20 if you count those. Yeah.

Lionel:
Oh!

Jim and David:
So this was.

Lionel:
Oh, so that tune's from when?

Jim and David:
That tune's from probably 1990, I would guess.

Lionel:
Whoa, I had no idea. I just, I saw the live performance and you looked kind of like you look on the screen. So I assumed it was a recent song. Oh, it's not, I'm sorry.

Jim and David:
I'm still playing that song and I love it. It still teaches me and I love the perspective that it has. And it's fascinating because that song was written extremely fast. It's the total exception to the rule. The song, I heard it in my head. I heard the music. I wrote the words as fast as I could. I didn't change a thing. Everything just came out all at once. That never happens.

Lionel:
Ha!

Jim and David:
that had been brewing for a lifetime. And there's images from childhood. And so I think the song was always cooking in there.

Lionel:
Oh, okay. Amazing.

Jim and David:
Yeah. Well, so and then the other song that you talked about briefly was the beautiful. Now, that's more recent. That is that is this decade. Yeah, it's not released yet. Not. Oh, this is also not released. So what a treat, listener or listeners, if there are two of you. Sorry, it's an exclusive. Here we go. This song

Lionel:
Thanks for watching!

Jim and David:
keeps getting deeper the more I listen to it. I saw you, I've seen you play this a couple of times. Once at the Burren and then once at Club Passime. I think it was newer when it was at the Burren. And the Passime for your birthday show and also the night, but I think you played it both nights. Yeah. Yeah, really it, there's something, there's, well, there's something, I know it's just something I'm gonna return to a lot re-engage with because I feel like it's speaking to something that's really complicated. What I loved about that song is it reminded me of the transparencies that I had in some

Lionel:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Jim and David:
school textbook where you'd see the skeleton and then the organs and then the

Lionel:
The invisible woman, the invisible

Jim and David:
right.

Lionel:
man. I had those.

Jim and David:
But

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
the things that overlay are these different metaphors. the painting, the boat in the ocean. I'm trying to look at all those things as if they're all saying the same thing about like, we can tend to our emotional buoyancy by making sure that we don't put, you know, we have whatever lifeboat we have, maybe it's the relationship, maybe it's the family, maybe it's the neighbors. It could get bigger. You could be into local politics, whatever. yourself be swamped in the ocean of sorrow, there's... What I love about my refuge in this simple practice of song is that a little boat holds back the whole ocean. The original first verse, the sort of pentamento that's covered over, the first verse was about the sacred act of opening the guitar case. There's five latches and you open this plush container There's this one thing in your life that actually could not be better. I mean, just verifiably, objectively could not be better. It's the best fucking guitar in the world. And so I think to myself, just to have one little place in my life, just to be able to touch something like that, it will keep you afloat. Wow.

Lionel:
Yeah, I like that line. You referenced it, but I really did love that line, which is that it only takes a small, simple boat

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
to protect you from miles. I forget you put it much more artfully than I can, but it's just a boat that separates you from this vast

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
sorrow underneath. And it doesn't take a lot. It's just a couple of planks, and it can keep you afloat.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
That's great. I

Jim and David:
to

Lionel:
didn't

Jim and David:
me.

Lionel:
get the whole thing. What was the whole thing about You talk about looking at the pictures and then there's the white space between them.

Jim and David:
Yeah,

Lionel:
And

Jim and David:
we'll see the

Lionel:
you

Jim and David:
frame

Lionel:
seem to be

Jim and David:
around.

Lionel:
making an ominous point about that. I didn't quite get it.

Jim and David:
Well, the frame around the painting, that was sort of inspired by this Frank Zappa quote where he was saying the most important aspect of any painting is the frame.

Lionel:
Mmm.

Jim and David:
Of course, he made a joke. He said, well, because otherwise people come in and they say, what's all this shit on the wall? But the other way that the frame is important is if you say to an artist, make the world beautiful, the artist will say, fuck you, I'm out of here. But if you say, wait, wait, come back. We have these four sticks. How about just within this frame? And he'll say, oh, okay.

Lionel:
That I can do.

Jim and David:
So I'm saying to people that there is something integrists about your own emotional buoyancy, just not sinking. You know, that's what they tell you in sort of lifeguard class, you know, don't just swim in and drown with the person you're trying to save, but throw them something that floats.

Lionel:
Ha!

Jim and David:
So there's just a whole lot of people who are singing themselves deeper into the sorrow song by song, just because I don't know, they think they'll get through it. No, no, it's a fucking deep ocean. And I just knew from the start, even when I was a kid, that there were things that were just waiting to kill me. And one of them was addiction. I could just tell from my whole family. And so I've been really lucky about skating around that one. But man. I always felt like that was chasing me. And by now, I'm pretty safe because I've got all these songs that are like the tools that I use to shake myself out of that dark perspective. They, you were talking about, there's a songwriter, was it Wes that you've been writing songs with? Yes, yeah. And you were saying, and I love this, I love this idea that he can build a character with just a tiny phrase. Yeah. Like that you just take half a line or a few words and you know who the person is. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And in a lot of ways, you know, Chet Baker, we're just looking at this tiny little moment at the end of his life. story. I think in my own mind, there's a story there, but it's not the real story. And the beautiful also, there's a story there that's not the real story, you're pointing at the story. But then in those cases, there is that sense that the story is actually the listener's story. So you've kind of opened it up. Some of the songs that you write are specifically I think it's remarkable. And I write songs, but I don't do this, where you're setting up metaphors so that the actual story that we are relating to is our own. I don't know anybody else who does that. I know somebody must do this. David Byrne, maybe? I don't know. It's an unusual way to write. The story that I'm pointing to is always sort of my own navigation in life, my own sort of keeping myself out of the shipwreck.

Lionel:
Thank you.

Jim and David:
And, you know, like one of the people that perishes in my songs, like there's this song about

Lionel:
Thanks.

Jim and David:
a fast motorcycle, the eye of the hurricane. And there's a woman who dies in there. She was one of the bodies in the mass. One of your first casualties. Yes.

Lionel:
you

Jim and David:
Yes. This is one of the second record. Yeah. So that is a true story about my experience of a motorcycle crash. And combined with another true story, a friend who died in a motorcycle wreck. But I kind of combined those two stories and I was working on it and it didn't work and didn't work. And then I just changed it to a woman. Oh, well, she must have a much better reason. She's not just going fast because she's stupid. Suddenly it became interesting. And when I look at the number of people, the persona

Lionel:
you

Jim and David:
in my songs that are women, it's like almost all women, unless I'm making fun of some stupid guy, all women.

Lionel:
What do you got against

Jim and David:
It's interesting.

Lionel:
us? Seriously.

Jim and David:
I think musically, I'm definitely a trans writer.

Lionel:
Okay.

Jim and David:
That will be the title of the podcast. Okay. Yeah. In quotes, I'm a trans writer. Okay. An interview with David Wilcox. So we will, sorry. Can I sample the Eye of the Hurricane? Fly it in later? Sure. Here's a little bit of the Eye of the Hurricane. And this song was tremendously popular. Would you say this is one of your top two songs in terms of like what people love? Do they most requested? Actually not. No, what is the most requested? What is your most requested? They're all the really sweet, kind songs, like kindness.

Lionel:
UGH

Jim and David:
Ah. Yeah. I love the dark stuff. Yeah. I, there, we did, I produced an album for you in 99 called What You Whisper. Oh, it's true. We didn't I didn't do anything. Well, I did some I did. It was it was a very automated drumming thing. It was it was all sequences and samples. And then and then there were a couple of tracks. And I think maybe those are three tracks for guitar shopping. What you whispered when you're ready and deeper still that are really just you with very little embellishment. And I I love that. I just love the way those came out. There's something it's like listening to you live. There's nothing missing. Although production on Chet Baker, who did that production? It was beautiful. That was Ben Wish and the Horn player. Fantastic solo. But I look back on that as like, oh, what I should have done was I should have taken that track to Los Angeles to Herb Alpert, you love Chet, why don't you play this solo? That would have been really fun. Wait, not now if he said no. Who are you? Get the hell out of my living room. He would have. He would have done it. Um,

Lionel:
you

Jim and David:
let me also play. I want to play a bit of this. This, this track knocks me out, even though I helped record it, but really literally just hit, I just hit play and I was lucky that the tape didn't run out. So this is a deeper still. Wow, it's so slow. I wanted to play that part of the song because I just want people to go and find this song and listen to the whole thing. Because there's no way to really get it until you hear the whole song. It's incredibly

Lionel:
Thanks.

Jim and David:
powerful. And that is off of what you whispered. Should be able to find that. I think it's on Apple Music and such. That was just a joy. I think I had told this story before. But we were in your kitchen. that machine hanging from the microphone stand because the cable to the stereo mic that I had wasn't very long. And so it was hanging there by a rubber band. And then I hit record and you just played through all the things that you were going to record that we're gonna work on. Like when we actually got to the studio and right as the tape was running out, I saw that you started playing deeper

Lionel:
Thank

Jim and David:
still.

Lionel:
you.

Jim and David:
And I just saw this like two millimeters left of tape kind of rolling, rolling, rolling And even though we were in the kitchen and there was a sound of the refrigerator and everything else I could tell when you started playing it and partway through that this was an incredible take and Just as you finished the last note the tape like the machine went click and We got it. We tried to make it better back in the studio got better mics more silence Couldn't beat that recording. And so that's the recording that ended up That's my story.

Lionel:
Well, my story is I'm really unfamiliar

Jim and David:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Lionel:
with a lot of this stuff, but a buddy of mine turned me on to people like Martin Carty and Nick Jones, like these British folk singers.

Jim and David:
Mm.

Lionel:
And I just I just I love that sort of luminous guitar playing. I really do. There's something really I mean. or did you come to your guitar or do you come from a different direction? Because

Jim and David:
Um

Lionel:
I just hear those British Isle guys

Jim and David:
Yeah, there

Lionel:
coming

Jim and David:
was

Lionel:
through

Jim and David:
a lot

Lionel:
a

Jim and David:
of that.

Lionel:
lot.

Jim and David:
Yes. And it was Nick Drake in about 1979

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
that really captured me. And there were other sort of really amazing guitar sounds. But I was always drawn to. The thing that I hear when I listen to a song is I hear sort of an emotional perspective. And that's the thing that was most valuable to me. Yeah. So the songs I studied were the songs that somehow were sort of seeped in that. someone's way of seeing the world.

Lionel:
Yeah, well, if I come from a family background of depression and addiction, Nick Drake is not exactly the first person I'd start with just FFYI. I don't know.

Jim and David:
You know... wealth.

Lionel:
But maybe I'm joking, but maybe that's the thing to do is just to dive, you know, just sail into the wind a little bit.

Jim and David:
Obviously, that's the thing I said, you know, I want to go as deep as Nick Drake and live. And the and live part was really important. It's a challenge. Yeah. Yeah.

Lionel:
Part two. Yeah.

Jim and David:
And make it look easy. Yeah.

Lionel:
And who else? Just so I get like kind of a compass here. So Nick Drake and what other people were you? You know, what other I mean, we we toss a lot of names around here in this show. I mean, what what what excites you? Are there certain artists or certain things that?

Jim and David:
Well, in terms of like right now, nothing is beating Jessica Hoop.

Lionel:
Jessica.

Jim and David:
Not Jessica, Jessica,

Lionel:
Okay.

Jim and David:
Jessica Hoop. Yep. She writes big ideas and little songs that spin like a top. It's just fucking amazing. And it won't surprise you when you hear her that she got a job being, was it like an au pair or no, like an assistant or a nanny for a couple near Los Angeles. And the couple was Kathleen. Brennan and Tom Waits.

Lionel:
Oh...

Jim and David:
Yes.

Lionel:
Oh...

Jim and David:
Wealth. Yes. Yeah, so it comes through. You can hear it. And they produced her first. No, not her first album, because she had it. I was reading up on her. She's had a couple of albums before this. But yeah, worth checking out. Jessica Hoop.

Lionel:
Do

Jim and David:
Really

Lionel:
you

Jim and David:
cool.

Lionel:
go to museums? I mean, or was that just an assault?

Jim and David:
Um, I had the experience of ducking out of the rain into a museum in New York City. And that's what I drew on for that.

Lionel:
And was it beautiful?

Jim and David:
Unfortunately, my real experience with visual art is that I have tried my whole life to be as moved by anything visual as I am by anything musical.

Lionel:
Okay.

Jim and David:
And I just don't have the eyes.

Lionel:
Really? Like there's nobody, like there's no picture.

Jim and David:
You know, I go through lots of museums and I look at pretty colors, but there's nothing that speaks of how a person deals with their sorrow, how they metabolize their sorrow. Um, I don't get it.

Lionel:
Okay, but music does.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
Literature.

Jim and David:
some, but really not a lot. It's

Lionel:
Really?

Jim and David:
really just songs that

Lionel:
Wow.

Jim and David:
grab me.

Lionel:
Oh, and do you get as much enjoyment from listening to them as you do from composing them, as you do from performing

Jim and David:
more.

Lionel:
them? I'm sorry,

Jim and David:
Yeah,

Lionel:
I lost track

Jim and David:
oh yeah.

Lionel:
of my own series of conditions. You get more from... What was the middle choice again? Sorry. More from what?

Jim and David:
I love listening. I love finding new music. Yeah. It's always been the main thing.

Lionel:
And where do you find new music?

Jim and David:
Well, now it's what I hear from friends, but also just the stuff that the algorithm on Spotify throws at me.

Lionel:
Really?

Jim and David:
Because I keep

Lionel:
Is

Jim and David:
trying to.

Lionel:
it good?

Jim and David:
It took longer from the algorithm to understand me than most people, because I don't sort music according to how it sounds. record store called Waterloo, and all the music was alphabetical. And so to me, that's how I understand. No, I don't sort music by, oh, that's urban or that's, you know, country. I

Lionel:
Yeah,

Jim and David:
just

Lionel:
genre, you know, yeah.

Jim and David:
I sort it not by how it sounds, which is so weird because it's music. It has a sound. And yet I can sort of that. It feels to me like I'm listening for what the person intends. They might have an accent of this or that area, but I listen for what they're saying.

Lionel:
Okay, let's play this game. This is a good one. And Jim, you gotta stop me. If

Jim and David:
Okay.

Lionel:
anything I'm saying is off boundaries here.

Jim and David:
Okay?

Lionel:
So give me two songs, Mr. Wilcox, two songs that are as far apart as could possibly be that you love. And, cause as you said,

Jim and David:
I'm out.

Lionel:
you're not paying attention to genres.

Jim and David:
Man,

Lionel:
You're paying attention

Jim and David:
I wish.

Lionel:
to emotional content. So give me, I'm just interested, example of mine. I mean, what do I love?

Jim and David:
you.

Lionel:
I love Debussy. I love MC 900 foot Jesus. I love Fishbone. Messiaen every now and then. I like the French guys. I like Stravinsky too. But I also like Mike West, New South. I like David Wilcox. So what I'm sort of interested in is, is there a pattern here?

Jim and David:
Yeah, to

Lionel:
I'm just

Jim and David:
me,

Lionel:
wondering.

Jim and David:
I'm not good with picking out specific examples right now, but it's true that I would consider two songs that have the same sort of, the same perspective to be sister songs, even though they sound very different. sweet ballad kind of thing. But

Lionel:
Well, it'll come to you when we're not thinking about it.

Jim and David:
yeah.

Lionel:
It'll pop out all of a sudden. But I think it's, you know, I think it's, it is fascinating. Cause music is fundamentally mysterious and inscrutable. Because what turns you on?

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
Good luck with that one. I mean,

Jim and David:
See ya!

Lionel:
I can't, I can't tell you why I like La Mer and MC 900 foot G. I mean, it's really hard to, I mean, that's the beauty of it is

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
it's nice that there's something that hasn't been the algorithm, the Spotify algorithm is hot on your trail. It's getting closer.

Jim and David:
It's getting closer each time they present me with a whole list of new songs. And I think it happens on Sunday. Um, I go through it. I discard probably 80% of them right away, but there's a few that I follow and I follow into, uh, you know, what branches off from that and what branches off from that, and that's where I find the cool stuff. Um, yeah. But it's weird, I wrote this kind of silly parody song about how I'm really confounding to the algorithm because... The computers at Spotify, they've never really felt a song. They've tracked human reactions and they're good with data, but they've never felt the way a lyric really hooks up. So they don't know what I love in songs. Well, sometimes good is not what's popular. Sometimes good is not what even people or friends of yours that you're following or listening to. Sometimes, you know, what you think is good is not of the same genres of everything else that you've been listening to. So what is it? You know, I mean, that's that is that is pretty tricky. Yeah.

Lionel:
Well, what I find fascinating, I mean, so something that I struggle with is like, there's the people who take the record and they immediately start reading the lyrics off the back of the record. I'm

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
dating myself, of course, nobody picks up the album anymore. I was never one of those people. In fact, that enraged me

Jim and David:
Huh.

Lionel:
when people did that. I was like, you've got to listen, put down the damn album cover. Listen. They're like, no, I got to read the lyrics. I'm like, who cares about the lyrics?

Jim and David:
Hehehehe

Lionel:
You know, who cares? It's just, it's music. So there is an echo in here. There is something looping back now, just FYI.

Jim and David:
Oh, okay.

Lionel:
I can hear it. I don't know what it is. Do we have

Jim and David:
separating

Lionel:
echo cancellation?

Jim and David:
the mic from the computer a little bit. Yeah, we have it on because we're not using headphones.

Lionel:
Do I have echo cancellation on? Maybe, maybe not. But I hear it really

Jim and David:
It might

Lionel:
loudly.

Jim and David:
be coming back

Lionel:
Well,

Jim and David:
through your headphones.

Lionel:
here, if I see. No, it's nothing to do with that. Anyway, so I was always fascinated by Led Zeppelin. I love the music. And I think the lyrics are total nonsense. But there's something about the music that is, you know, that is interesting and fun. I mean, do you notice anything like that? I mean, is there something, Is there something that's an absolute turn off with music? Like if the lyrics don't make sense, forget it's not going into the rotation.

Jim and David:
No, I can definitely listen in to, but it's easier for me if the lyrics are in a language that I don't know.

Lionel:
They sound so much more noble, don't they? They sound so much more,

Jim and David:
Mm-hmm

Lionel:
it sounds so deep when Astrid Gilberto is singing the Girl from Ipanema in Portuguese.

Jim and David:
Yeah, right. It's not just about some dirty old man on a beach.

Lionel:
leering at some girl.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
It's like, it's like deep.

Jim and David:
Why, how come you don't want me? I'm only 50 or 60. So I think that there are definite lyrical turnoffs though. I mean, I think, and someone I know, a friend of mine and I were talking about this. I'm not sure if he wants to admit it, but there are, are phrases that are just, you can tell, they're easy. They're trite and they've been done to death and they don't offer any new view. They don't open any new doors. They don't open any new windows. It sort of reminds me of when you watch a movie trailer and you say, well, we've seen that movie.

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
Why listen to the song? And yeah, some songs need to be thrown across the room or right in the rubbish not trying, they're not digging deep enough. That's my opinion. And I mean, look, first and then someone else, they're fine. But I can't stand it. I can't stand it when it's when the writer hasn't taken a moment to describe something in particular. Yeah. And they're trying to describe everything in general. And it doesn't work. Yeah. I want them to, I want to, I want to take them aside and say, do you want to do this? Yeah. Is this something you want to do? Then you need to do better. Yeah. When, when you and I are ruling the world, it's going to rain really hell on songwriters. Mercy. Yeah. I'd like to, I'd like to finish out with

Lionel:
Thanks for watching!

Jim and David:
a really, really cool song. And I don't think Lionel, I sent this to you, but I don't think you had time to listen to it. Maybe you did. This was also off of What You Whispered, and this was in 99. And I just want people to know, this was before, this was like five years before the eternal sunshine of this spotless mind came out. And it's a tune called When You're Ready. He played a baritone guitar through a tremolo. That tremolo over there. I remember it very well. And at the end of the song, I don't know what made us do this. We like created this, like a radio that you're tuning in People are talking sort of way in the background. You have to kind of listen closely. I don't know, I was probably high. This is when you're ready.

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Oh

Lionel:
Yeah.

Jim and David:
man. Yeah, I love that recording, love that song.

Lionel:
Wow. It reminds, I'm sorry, because we have these tropes that we deal with. Um,

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
you watched, did you ever watch the expanse? You

Jim and David:
Yeah,

Lionel:
didn't, Jim. You did.

Jim and David:
I did watch the expanse. Yeah.

Lionel:
You remember the, the scientists who gets the portion of his brain that includes compassion erased Salazar.

Jim and David:
Oh, yeah. Was that, he was, oh yes, because he had to work with kids, experimenting on kids.

Lionel:
Well, I don't know if it's but there's this thing where, you know, it's if you haven't seen it, it's this thing where they they temporarily they they offer the scientists, they said, look, we can we can erase the part of your brain that functions on compassion and worry. And they said we can do it temporarily. So it lasts for five minutes. And then the person said, well, what did you do? He says, oh, I immediately decided to have it done permanently. People like like we're talking about people leaping at things and and the and and taking the opportunity to erase your past and start all over again.

Jim and David:
Yeah.

Lionel:
Yeah it's a powerful draw.

Jim and David:
I love the line, we haven't tried this on civilians yet. And there's, I mean, yeah, it's great. You should listen

Lionel:
It's

Jim and David:
to the

Lionel:
great.

Jim and David:
whole song, it's really, really

Lionel:
It

Jim and David:
good.

Lionel:
is great.

Jim and David:
And I love, so those are the, yeah, I mean, there are these songs that are just super dark. And I think it's great to have a blueprint for kind of how to walk out of the suffering. I know that that is ultimately good, but I really love the ones that just start dark and stay dark. That's the T-shirt. Start dark, stay dark.

Lionel:
It's always dark as before it goes completely pitch black, right?

Jim and David:
That's a chamber. That's a close chamber.

Lionel:
No, it's actually it's actually despair.com the success

Jim and David:
Oh is

Lionel:
series

Jim and David:
it?

Lionel:
parodies. Yeah, they had a t-shirt for that but anyway

Jim and David:
Well, David, thank you. Thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Really fun hanging with you guys.

Lionel:
Thanks.

Jim and David:
This was really cool. And we expanded Lionel's musical vocabulary slightly with your music. And Lionel, it's good to see you.

Lionel:
Good to see you too.

Jim and David:
Talk to you next week.

Lionel:
Okay.

Jim and David:
Chau.

Lionel:
Yeah.